The entire conversation is cross-posted in both of their Substacks, but with different introductions -- Sara's titled "Does Motherhood Have A PR Crisis?" and Amanda's "What is motherhood writing for?" (Both intros are worth reading -- and I don't think either post is paywalled, at least not right now?). Both cite and link to other great pieces of writing that informed their own thoughts.
(One piece not mentioned in the discussion: the always-great Moira Donegan -- who is referenced, and is childfree by choice -- recently reviewed the book "What Are Children For?: On Ambivalence and Choice" by Anastasia Berg and Rachel Wiseman, for Book Forum: "Baby Talk: On pro-natalism and motherhood after Dobbs.") (I guess I can scratch THAT one off my to-read list...! -- unless to read with a critical eye, as Donegan does here...?)
The conversation is, as you can imagine, very motherhood-focused (both Amanda & Sara are mothers) -- but it's an intelligent one, and I found it fascinating. Depending on where you are in your journey, you might find it interesting too. The childfree choice gets some space, but (sadly) nowhere is it mentioned that not all of us choose to be childless, or that we might have a slightly different perspective to offer.
I appreciated comments like this one, from Sara:
...from my perspective, the idea that motherhood can be a noble, fulfilling endeavor is the DOMINANT narrative, and has been . . . pretty much forever? I find myself wondering who/what we’re concerned about in this question of good/bad maternal PR.
Amanda agrees:
Right, exactly. There are plenty of depictions of motherhood as rich and fulfilling—as you have written about at length! We have plenty of “online discourse” that covers that area. Not to mention all of history, in which the sentimentalization of motherhood has been the dominant story we’ve told about women and their presumed biological destiny.
From MY perspective, as a childless-not-by-choice woman, I agree. The message that motherhood is "the best thing that ever happened to me" still seems pretty relentless to me, and often only serves to rub salt in our wounds. On the other hand, the acknowledgement that motherhood is damned hard work, and it's not all sunshine and roses, sometimes comes as a bit of a relief to those of us who get to experience neither.
Sara & Amanda also identify -- correctly, I think -- that the handwringing about motherhood's supposed "PR crisis" and falling birthrates, etc., is part of the concerted push in certain quarters to get women married, pregnant, out of the workforce and subservient to/dependent on men again. And it's likely this pushback will be amplified, now that pronatalist forces are back in power in Washington (and elsewhere in the U.S. and around the world).
Both women use the term "backlash" several times throughout their conversation (at one point, Amanda speaks of "the backlash to more nuanced— and yes, critical— depictions of motherhood") -- which of course made me think of Susan Faludi and her book "Backlash" (which I read when it first came out in 1991, and would really like to re-read again soon!), about the backlash at the time against the feminist movement and gains of the 1970s and early 80s.
It's a really rich discussion with lots to chew on! If you read it, I'd love to know what you think. :)
You can find more of this week's #MicroblogMondays posts here.
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